Curse

TwinRaven · Jul 15, 2008, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Wow! Such heated discussion and argument over something no one can do anything about. Face it folks: They are starting over with GW2.

Your arguments are like fighting with your ex-wife over private vs. public education for your kids...and you never had any.

It's over...let her go.

fenix · Jul 15, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

So how does something like Ursan Blessing affect me since I don't use ursan blessings? Someone please provide one example.

I'll give you one.

I rarely use Ursan, as I prefer to use a proper build to win PvE. That being said, Ursan affects me, because teams are able to run Ursanway and roll through FoW or UW or DoA (or even the Factions elite missions) in a FRACTION of the time it takes me with a balanced team. Because of the speed, it devalues Ecto, Shards, Armbraces, and the DoA specific greens. Because I personally keep the majority of my wealth in Ecto and Armbraces (I spend it if it's gold >.>), as the value drops (due to Ursan), I lose money.

This is best shown with SF farming UW. Ecto has gone from ~5k each, to ~3k each. This devalue, although I don't do SF farming (I did, but got bored), affects me because my ecto are suddenly worth 60% of their previous value. To date, this has cost me at LEAST 500 plat, and that's without me spending a single cent - that's just from ecto getting over farmed. I also know of a lot of players who have lost millions of plat because of this.

Now, you may say that money isn't everything, or that cheaper ecto means others can buy FoW or Chaos Gloves, but really... for MYSELF, and others who have decent amounts of ecto, this hits really hard, as we are losing money left right and center.

kostolomac · Jul 15, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

^Did A.net swore a vow or signed a pact that ectos and armbraces will have the same value forever? Everything in GW is losing value slowly , ursan just made it faster.
@thread: ursan (not because of the economy) and imbagons need to die , seriously. SR needs a little tweak. And many other skill changes are needed if we want to move from the holy trinity if ursan is removed.

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

All these arguments claiming it's [SR] overpowered in PvE are silly.

Just look at the MM.
The MM should be held back by the lack of corpses. That doesn't happen in PvE.
So to have such offensive (and especially DEFENSIVE!) power at one's disposal by using TWO freaking skills is just insane.
Actually our view of MMs is horribly broken. We consider anyone that runs around with a max number of minions an average MM. Insane again.
A person that has 10 minions should be considered good and a person that can keep them alive should be considered godly. And an average MM should be running around with 5ish minions.
And what would set the average players apart from the gods would be how good they are with e-management. Currently everyone can be a god. And that's Ursan.

And that's why you can kill off SR. The concept of blood is to insane to ever work - so it doesn't matter if it stays dead - while curses resemble the Illusion line. Well in a way that actually works and has normal skills that surpass the mesmer's elites (in PvE of course). And it's because of that that there is no reason whatsoever why curses couldn't be fulled by GoLE.

MMs are to powerful to even suggest that SR should exist because of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Now that that has been said, I also wanted to state that the concept of Monk's advantage over Rits being Protection Prayers is quite wrong. Weapon spells are Ritualist's version of prot, and they're better because they can't be removed. I was tempted to put that in all caps, but for now I'll leave cruise control off.

They don't stack. So the fact that they can't be removed matters very little in PvE - because ench removal just doesn't happen that often.
In a game that breaks all game rules - there is just 1 prot that is really needed.
[protective spirit].
And the ritualists don't have a comparable skill.
When you are getting hit for 400 damage - it doesn't matter that your 50% chance to block can not get removed.

That's the problem - we have various similar concepts - and then there is a different way of balancing them.
You have enches and weapon spells. Because WS can't be removed - you can only use 1. But then - pretty much all of PvE lacks decent ench removal - which in effect causes that enches ALSO aren't removable. Yet they do stack.
Or look at spirits and minions. Since spirits don't require a corpse - they are immobile and there can only be one copy of a spirit active.
But because minions do require - which should be the balancing aspect - you can have as many as you want. And all of a sudden - corpses are abundant in PvE.
And then you have SR trigger on effects such as dead - which won't happen that much in PvP - and in PvE everything is dying all the time.

If you plan on an event to balance something in the game - and then that event isn't programed into PvE - then that thing isn't balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem is it doesn't even pose a challenge the first time anymore. I know relatively new players FARMING elite areas nowadays.

I also hate the idea that PvE has never been challenging and that PvP is supposedly "the place to go if you want a challenge". Thats a load of garbage, especially for people who actually want challenge in their games instead of mindless grinding. I remember when Thunderhead Keep Bonus was hard as crap...10x harder than anything today. The reason its easy today is not because Thunderhead Keep got easier or because the players got significantly better, but because of the arrival of serious power creep and inbalances of things such as Ursan.

I actually wrote my MAW-story in the previous post just because of this.
I didn't Ursan and the game wasn't a challenge. Even the first time.
There is nothing you can do about that - you are too good for GW PvE.
But here is the thing - I don't play PvE to be challenged.
And I am pretty sure there are many others out there like - although because of different reason. I like to look at the environment, some just want the pretty things or virtual gold.
I don't see where the idea that if a person isn't challenged - there is something wrong came from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Ursan Blessing might as well read: "Target player using this skill has their probability of buying Guild Wars 2 raised from 50% to 90%. This skill also reduces some other players probability of buying Guild Wars 2 from 90% to 50%, but those players are less so who cares. This skill cannot be nerfed because balance does not matter in our marketing plan".

No, they don't just care because there is less of them.
They care less because even out of the people that dislike the current game - the 50% chance pf purchase means that every second player will still get it.
People who are pissed about "the baddies" are most of the time just pissed. We don't SHOW how pissed we are - outside of yelling here.
Quit.
In masses.

Carinae · Jul 15, 2008, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Kind of likes specs on a computer, do you target the extreme high-end computer (thus limiting the number of customers) or do you target the mid range computer (still limiting the number of customer but offering a quality that appeals to gamers)? If PvE balance is changed to satisfy less then 1% of the customers what happens to the other 99% of the customers?

PvE, like PvP, must be balanced around the very highest tier. You have to look at the top players and how they push the skillset and balance around that.

Amnel Ithtirsol · Jul 15, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

Wow! Such heated discussion and argument over something no one can do anything about. Face it folks: They are starting over with GW2.

Your arguments are like fighting with your ex-wife over private vs. public education for your kids...and you never had any.

It's over...let her go.

...made me lol.
True tho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

No, they don't just care because there is less of them.
They care less because even out of the people that dislike the current game - the 50% chance pf purchase means that every second player will still get it.
People who are pissed about "the baddies" are most of the time just pissed. We don't SHOW how pissed we are - outside of yelling here.
Quit.
In masses.

Agreed.

R.Shayne · Jul 15, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I'll give you one.

I rarely use Ursan, as I prefer to use a proper build to win PvE. That being said, Ursan affects me, because teams are able to run Ursanway and roll through FoW or UW or DoA (or even the Factions elite missions) in a FRACTION of the time it takes me with a balanced team. Because of the speed, it devalues Ecto, Shards, Armbraces, and the DoA specific greens. Because I personally keep the majority of my wealth in Ecto and Armbraces (I spend it if it's gold >.>), as the value drops (due to Ursan), I lose money.

As a farmer and one that has ran an assassin, terra, and monk for the speedway groups I can tell the amount of ecto they are getting is nothing compared to the farmers. For one simple reason the speed clears don't clear, they target specific groups that are only quest related. A 600 / Smite team will get more ecto then these guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

This is best shown with SF farming UW. Ecto has gone from ~5k each, to ~3k each. This devalue, although I don't do SF farming (I did, but got bored), affects me because my ecto are suddenly worth 60% of their previous value. To date, this has cost me at LEAST 500 plat, and that's without me spending a single cent - that's just from ecto getting over farmed. I also know of a lot of players who have lost millions of plat because of this.

You had 500k+ in ecto? Well if you had bought it when ecto was 20k each that wouldn't be so bad but since you are not complaining about a 92% lose in profits I am going to guess you got it later. I am really confused here but I think we are suppose to spend it, unless you know something I don't and plan on retiring in the game.

Again Ursan Blessing (I think we agree here) didn't cause ecto to drop in value. Over farming combine with the Z-keys title and constant favor caused the recent price drops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Now, you may say that money isn't everything, or that cheaper ecto means others can buy FoW or Chaos Gloves, but really... for MYSELF, and others who have decent amounts of ecto, this hits really hard, as we are losing money left right and center.

Ecto is not the answer to my one question and before someone says they are causing the value of rare equipment to drop by farming the end chest, go read the Z-chest thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

PvE, like PvP, must be balanced around the very highest tier. You have to look at the top players and how they push the skillset and balance around that.

PvE balance should be balance based on your targeted customer, period. The difficult level has to be set to them, trying to set it to hardcore players will only alienate the largest part of your customer base. Example: As a hardcore farmer I do with one or two character what the targeted customers does with eight. If ANET increases the difficulty level to keep me from farming they have also increased the difficulty level for the targeted customer. The targeted customer now finds it impossible to complete the game. What will they do then? They don't come here and post on the forums, they un-install the game and when future Guild War products comes out they will not buy it. What will I do, I simply adjust my build or tactic and keep right on farmer.

I asked for one example of how someone using Ursan Blessing affects someone else that does not like it and does not use it. Please give one or more examples.

DarkNecrid · Jul 15, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

so i heard they had difficulty settings. What you're saying is bad game design, sorry. Normal Mode should be for the targeted customer, yes, but Hard Mode should be yknow, actually hard. If it alienates people, then that's fine, there is nothing you get in hard mode that you can't get elsewhere except for titles. woooo some text.

The game has always been completable. Normal Mode has always been completable. hard mode should only be completable by people with the skills to do so, because it is supposed to be hard.

You do not make a higher difficulty setting and then make it piss easy. That completely destroys the point of the higher difficulty setting.

Koning · Jul 15, 2008, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

I asked for one example of how someone using Ursan Blessing affects me since I don't like it and don't use it. Please give me one example.

Also, if you happen to like PuG'ing you're doomed to run UB. Face it, it's just better if it's changed from its current state.

Avarre · Jul 15, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

PvE, like PvP, must be balanced around the very highest tier. You have to look at the top players and how they push the skillset and balance around that.

This.

If you're not balancing around the maximum potential of the player, there's no purpose in improvement, and no reward for skill. This makes a shallow, boring game.

Some of the most timeless and appreciated games are those with unreachable skill/power ceilings (StarCraft), or at least extremely high (Diablo II, albeit gear based). Just two examples among many, where the game encourages the player to play more and constantly develop by rewarding them for doing so.

I don't see how this is arguable, especially in a game that involves multiple players. If you want a flat game with a simple level required, play a single player game.

R.Shayne · Jul 15, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

so i heard they had difficulty settings. What you're saying is bad game design, sorry. Normal Mode should be for the targeted customer, yes, but Hard Mode should be yknow, actually hard. If it alienates people, then that's fine, there is nothing you get in hard mode that you can't get elsewhere except for titles. woooo some text.

The game has always been completable. Normal Mode has always been completable. hard mode should only be completable by people with the skills to do so, because it is supposed to be hard.

You do not make a higher difficulty setting and then make it piss easy. That completely destroys the point of the higher difficulty setting.

As for someone else using Ursan Blessing to grind a title in Hard mode (woooo some text - we agree here) doesn't affect me. Someone else using Ursan Blessing to complete the game in hard mode, doesn't affect my game.

Hard mode to me just equals a better farm, doesn't matter what level the charr is, it is still the same AI controlling it. If ANET wants a hard mode develop a different AI, change the builds, and improve the equipment and give them ever advantage possible because more levels doesn’t work (of course that is just my opinion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

Also, if you happen to like PuG'ing you're doomed to run UB. Face it, it's just better if it's changed from its current state.

Yeah I miss people saying things like "GLF Mesmer Sorrows furnace", wait I was dreaming that. Ursan Blessing didn't change pug mentality, it just caused the builds to change just like ever other nerf and buff. Fortunately there is a way to sort out the groups I don't want to pug with, they say stuff like "GLF W/Me R9+ UB with cons". If you like to pug then it is only going to get worse, no matter what they do to Ursan Blessing, because the number of people playing is decreasing and that is most likely caused by no new content.

Please someone give me a reason how someone else using Ursan Blessing affects someone else game, one example.

DarkNecrid · Jul 15, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

As for someone else using Ursan Blessing to grind a title in Hard mode (woooo some text - we agree here) doesn't affect me. Someone else using Ursan Blessing to complete the game in hard mode, doesn't affect my game.

The game is less hard, for that person. It defeats the purpose of the difficulty level.

You do not add an i win button to the extreme level of something. Sure, not everyone may take it, but it still makes the purpose of adding the extreme level of something completely pointless.

Just because Ursan Blessing doesn't affect your (this seems rather selfish and had nothing to do with the thread at all) game, doesn't mean it does nothing bad for the game. It does.

More over, this is a balance thread. It isn't about whether something affects your game or not, it is about whether it affects the game as a whole.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Please someone give me a reason how someone else using Ursan Blessing affects my game, one example.

Nothing anyone ever does affects your gameplay. That's not to say that it's not a problem because it doesn't affect you, but that you can't use that argument to justify game decisions. If I excuse Ursan because "it doesn't affect me", then I've excused any overpowered thing ANet can introduce. Skills that kill mobs in one hit, skills that give players a million K in a second, skills that give a billion health a second - *all* of those things are excused with the "it doesn't affect me" argument.

"Don't like it, don't use it" isn't a valid argument here.

Abnaxus · Jul 15, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I'll give you one.

I rarely use Ursan, as I prefer to use a proper build to win PvE. That being said, Ursan affects me, because teams are able to run Ursanway and roll through FoW or UW or DoA (or even the Factions elite missions) in a FRACTION of the time it takes me with a balanced team. Because of the speed, it devalues Ecto, Shards, Armbraces, and the DoA specific greens. Because I personally keep the majority of my wealth in Ecto and Armbraces (I spend it if it's gold >.>), as the value drops (due to Ursan), I lose money.

This is best shown with SF farming UW. Ecto has gone from ~5k each, to ~3k each. This devalue, although I don't do SF farming (I did, but got bored), affects me because my ecto are suddenly worth 60% of their previous value. To date, this has cost me at LEAST 500 plat, and that's without me spending a single cent - that's just from ecto getting over farmed. I also know of a lot of players who have lost millions of plat because of this.

Now, you may say that money isn't everything, or that cheaper ecto means others can buy FoW or Chaos Gloves, but really... for MYSELF, and others who have decent amounts of ecto, this hits really hard, as we are losing money left right and center.

OH POOR you're losing really a lot of MONEY, in a short time you won't have enough to buy food for your children

OMG what kind of things people writes on forums ... wake up, this is a videogame, it's made to have fun.

Do like me: I play with a friend, we got 20+ titles together, enjoyed a lot of things in this videogame, have a lot of fun talking in teamspeak.
And we don't play ursan, because with 6 heroes in the team we found ursan underpowered compared to the regular ranger skills, but sometimes if we want to join a PUG we also do ursan.

I had more money, simply because I farm or spend some more time in game for Kurzick title, instead he just collects the ordinary drops, and also doesn't like to spam in the trade chat and so he keeps the stuff for himself.

When we completed Legendary Vanquisher, guess what I did?
With the low price of ectos, I bought 210 ectos and 210 shards, we went to FoW and crafted our armors

Now we're both totally pennyless, but happy for the enjoyment this game gave us, and will continue to play and enjoy.

That's the way GW is meant to be played, shame for the a$$hole$ who cry every day for the unbelievable "money" lost because of the evil ecto farmers and ursan.

Koning · Jul 15, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Yeah I miss people saying things like "GLF Mesmer Sorrows furnace", wait I was dreaming that. Ursan Blessing didn't change pug mentality, it just caused the builds to change just like ever other nerf and buff. Fortunately there is a way to sort out the groups I don't want to pug with, they say stuff like "GLF W/Me R9+ UB with cons". If you like to pug then it is only going to get worse, no matter what they do to Ursan Blessing, because the number of people playing is decreasing and that is most likely caused by no new content.

Please someone give me a reason how someone else using Ursan Blessing affects my game, one example.

There are people who don't play in guilds, and therefore they need to join a PuG if they wanna do certain elite missions etc. Right now its hard for them to join groups if they are casual players who don't have rank 10. It's just like the rank discrimination in HA. So even if Anet wants to protect the casual player, they should nerf it.

And what darknecrid said, this thread isn't about how something affects you...

Avarre · Jul 15, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

When we completed Legendary Vanquisher, guess what I did?
With the low price of ectos, I bought 210 ectos and 210 shards, we went to FoW and crafted our armors

Now we're both totally pennyless, but happy for the enjoyment this game gave us, and will continue to play and enjoy.

That's the way GW is meant to be played, shame for the a$$hole$ who cry every day for the unbelievable "money" lost because of the evil ecto farmers and ursan.

I can't help but notice the irony that what benefits you is 'the way GW is meant to be played' but anything that damages the older players, and the way they played GW for years, is 'boo hoo it's just a game'.

By the same logic, I could argue for the removal of all PvE skills because 'it's just a game, why should you care', but I think we both know that kind of logic is bad.

R.Shayne · Jul 15, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

[QUOTE=DarkNecrid]The game is less hard, for that person. It defeats the purpose of the difficulty level.

You do not add an i win button to the extreme level of something. Sure, not everyone may take it, but it still makes the purpose of adding the extreme level of something completely pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Just because Ursan Blessing doesn't affect your (this seems rather selfish and had nothing to do with the thread at all) game, doesn't mean it does nothing bad for the game. It does.

You’re right, I will change ever post I have made to state, Give one example how another customer running Ursan blessing affects another customer's not running usran blessing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

More over, this is a balance thread. It isn't about whether something affects your game or not, it is about whether it affects the game as a whole.

Exactly, balancing a game based only on elite or hardcore player (something some in the industry have stated should never be done) affects everyone. If hardcore / elite players can not stop and take a look around and realize there are more players then just themselves instead of whinning the game is to easy (opinion base) then ANET may listen to a vocal minority. Which resulted in PvE skills.

My suggestion on how to balance these PvE skills is I want the title part completely removed from the skills and go back to skills being tied to a profession and attribute. As it is now the title skills allows player to have more then 2 professions since a skill like "Radiation Field" should be a necro hex tied to curses. Usran Blessing should be limited to warriors and tied directly to the strength attribute. Those are my suggestion but how would that affect the game? As a hardcore player wouldn't affect me but what affect would it have on other players?

Abnaxus · Jul 15, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I can't help but notice the irony that what benefits you is 'the way GW is meant to be played' but anything that damages the older players, and the way they played GW for years, is 'boo hoo it's just a game'.

By the same logic, I could argue for the removal of all PvE skills because 'it's just a game, why should you care', but I think we both know that kind of logic is bad.

The "way it's meant to be played" is not what benefits me, read please before posting.
To me the game is not stacking pink pixels.
As soon as I had the opportunity to enjoy something new, like a nice skin armor, I shared all my virtual gold with a friend, no matter if now we're both pennyless.
With ectos at 10k, simply we would have continued playing the game as we have done and will do until we like it.

For me PvE skills are nearly useless, I have only 1 in my standard bar which is vanguard assassin and only if I play BHA, if I play splinter barrage not even that, and as I told you we got 22 titles together with my friend, and I have 29 titles total.
A.net created PvE skills, they're nice because they add variety, if they remove we just have less variety.

Now you have to explain me your idea of something that "damages old players", especially referred to someone who feels himself "damaged" because HIS stacks of pink pixels have lost virtual value.

To me, someone who thinks like this is a pure idiot, not an older player.

MisterT69 · Jul 15, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I'll give you one.

I rarely use Ursan, as I prefer to use a proper build to win PvE. That being said, Ursan affects me, because teams are able to run Ursanway and roll through FoW or UW or DoA (or even the Factions elite missions) in a FRACTION of the time it takes me with a balanced team. Because of the speed, it devalues Ecto, Shards, Armbraces, and the DoA specific greens. Because I personally keep the majority of my wealth in Ecto and Armbraces (I spend it if it's gold >.>), as the value drops (due to Ursan), I lose money.

This is best shown with SF farming UW. Ecto has gone from ~5k each, to ~3k each. This devalue, although I don't do SF farming (I did, but got bored), affects me because my ecto are suddenly worth 60% of their previous value. To date, this has cost me at LEAST 500 plat, and that's without me spending a single cent - that's just from ecto getting over farmed. I also know of a lot of players who have lost millions of plat because of this.

Now, you may say that money isn't everything, or that cheaper ecto means others can buy FoW or Chaos Gloves, but really... for MYSELF, and others who have decent amounts of ecto, this hits really hard, as we are losing money left right and center.

Ummm...ok I'll just go ahead and say it. You invested in a material with no set value, and the ability to fluctuate in price at any given time. It's not like gas here which steadily increases in price. Ecto has just as often a chance of dropping as it does of skyrocketing and all that bull on how its the SF ruining the economy isn't that clever apparently. Ele's and 55/ss can also farm plains and hell, the 55/ss combo can clear the whole damn UW. So saying your investment was ruined because of some assassins, then you have to realize the opposite argument, who bought the ectos? You did? Who should have been aware of it's fluctuations? You should have. Remember ecto used to be 15k and then it dropped to 5k after a while, and people got pissed as shit. Now it drops 2k and everyone's throwing just as big of a bitchfest. Here's a tip, sell your ecto and buy something w/a more stable value...Z-keys for example.

Trub · Jul 15, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Now you have to explain me your idea of something that "damages old players", especially referred to someone who feels himself "damaged" because HIS stacks of pink pixels have lost virtual value.

To me, someone who thinks like this is a pure idiot, not an older player.

You sir, don't have a clue.
Avarre IS one of the original 'Old School' players you keep hearing about in these threads.
I tend to believe everythng he, Fenix, Rahja, and most from dR...law, SMS, TAM, GR, DVDF and Rare have to say.
We have played from the beginning, we have tried (and yes, failed a few times) using the skills available.
If ANY of those people say a skill is broken....you better believe it IS broken.
Experience over want.
It is not greed speaking in these folks posts...but dissapointment in a game that took a down turn for the lesser variable.
fenix has saved his items and ectos for YEARS.
Why?..Because he can..and it's his fun to collect things.
But you better believe he got them the hard way..not handed to him on a silver plate .
May I recommend sir, you click on any one of their names..and review past posts they have submitted on this forum..you may learn to think before you spout.
~Peace
Trubby.